A Conversation with Writer and Podcast Creator Mark Caro
And! Film critic, Mueller Report demystifier, & quintessential cat person
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Winter quarter is winding down and the gas tank is blinking its urgent Empty! Empty! but I know I still have at least 20 miles worth of fuel in there. Even so, holy moly, I am ready for a little break.
In the interstices between teaching and other work these last few weeks, I saw three Oscar nominees: American Fiction, Oppenheimer, and Anatomy of a Fall - really enjoyed them all. Please share in the comments section what you’ve seen lately.
Today’s interview, coincidentally, is with Mark Caro, former Chicago Tribune movie critic and reporter as well as the author of several books, among them The Foie Gras Wars and The Special Counsel: The Mueller Report Retold. I first encountered his often very funny, erudite film reviews in the early 2000s, and in 2012, I met Mark and his wife Mary Dixon (also a journalist and Chicago’s NPR affiliate WBEZ’s Morning Edition anchor), at a fellow writer’s birthday party.
I knew Mary’s voice from the radio and Mark’s writing from the Tribune and when I realized who they were, my inner fangirl emerged—helium in my heart, Jell-o in my knees.
It turned out we all lived in Evanston, Illinois, where Mark and Mary still reside and do their important (and often very entertaining) work. Mark answered a few questions for me recently about his books and his podcast Caropop, for which he interviews well-known musicians, actors, writers, and filmmakers.
Christine/Bookish: You wrote feature articles and movie reviews for years for the Chicago Tribune - how did that work prepare you for Caropop?
Mark Caro: I wrote a lot about music too, including concert and album reviews; a local music column I launched in the days of Smashing Pumpkins; and classical music coverage, including profiles of Yo-Yo Ma, Renee Fleming and Riccardo Muti (an early Caropop guest). But the biggest factors are 1) my innate curiosity and nerdiness when it comes to music, film, food and books; and 2) the many interviews I conducted for articles and onstage.
While at the Tribune I insisted on interviewing visiting actors and filmmakers outside of their hotel rooms—like over lunch or in an unusual setting—and my favorite compliment from a subject was “That didn’t feel like an interview. That felt like a conversation.”
I realized I elicited the best material when the interviewee could relax and respond to genuine curiosity instead of feeling like they were being grilled.
I also conducted onstage interviews that the Tribune and others (such as the Chicago Humanities Festival and Ideas Week) presented—with Jesse Eisenberg, John Cusack, Colson Whitehead, Laura Linney, Bob Saget, and others. In 2019 I started my own onstage interview series at the local [Evanston] club Space, “Talking in Space,” and when the pandemic closed those doors, I still wanted to do long-form interviews.
First I thought I’d move them to Zoom and call it “Talking in Cyberspace” before I decided that everyone was looking at Zoom too much already. So I pivoted to a podcast and called it Caropop because that seemed snappy, and no one had the domain.
CS: How do you prepare for a Caropop interview? And I'm wondering how you learned all the technical details for producing Caropop episodes.
MC: Some guests I know better than others. When I made some obscure XTC reference to Colin Moulding, the band’s bassist/singer/songwriter, he said, “You have done your research, haven’t you?” I assured him that no research was required, because I’d been immersing myself in his band’s music for decades. But that’s not true for all guests, so I read everything I can about them, listen to their music or watch their films, etc., and if they have a memoir, I try to read that as well.
I write up pages of questions, put them into some logical order, and if the conversation goes well, I barely glance at them.
I learned long ago that I’m better off being fully present, listening and reacting rather than waiting to ask the next question. Sometimes questions go unanswered, but as long as the conversation flows and illuminates, I’m happy.
I conduct most interviews over Zoom and have a decent home setup with an interface and high-quality microphone. That’s about all the technical expertise I need, because I made the wise decision to hire an experienced radio producer, Chris Cwiak, to cut together the intros, including the music drop-ins, and episodes. You need good teammates.
CS: I’m likewise curious about how you decide which guests to invite - there's such a wide range of creators - musicians, actors, novelists, among others.
MC: The sweet spot is when I admire their work, and they’re accessible. I’d love to have on Paul McCartney, but that hasn’t happened yet—not that I won’t try. (Paul—or someone close to him—if you’re listening…) I’ve found that many creative people enjoy discussing their work and appreciate the interest.
The music business can be especially unforgiving, and a lot of people have made wonderful music and have great stories to tell without having been asked. I originally thought the guests would be split among music people and actors and filmmakers, with some authors and chefs thrown in.
But people involved with filmed entertainment often have publicists trying to maximize the payoff for a project, so there may be more hoops to jump through for those. Veteran musicians not only are more likely to be available, but, if you believe the download numbers, the Caropop audience is more interested in conversations with mastering engineers, music producers and performers than film/TV celebrities—or authors or chefs, though I plan to keep inviting all of the above.
CS: You've published several books over the last decade and a half - two with your name as the sole byline, The Foie Gras Wars and The Special Counsel: The Mueller Report Retold, and others where you shared the writing credit, Behind the Laughter and Take It to the Bridge: Unlocking the Great Stories Inside You. How do you decide which projects to pursue?
MC: That is an excellent, tricky question. The Foie Gras Wars, which Simon & Schuster published in 2009, is the only one of those four books that I’d call my book. It grew out of my reporting for the Chicago Tribune about the legal and ethical battles over fat duck livers, and I wanted to dig deeper into how we (and politicians) decide what’s OK to eat.
I wrote a proposal, my agent sold it, an editor embraced it, and aside from the editor getting laid off three months before the book came out amid a deep recession and publishing industry implosion, it was an excellent experience.
The other book with only my name on it, The Special Counsel: The Mueller Report Retold, was a work-for-hire project proposed by Little, Brown. I received a flat fee, no royalties, to write a readable version of The Mueller Report, because the original text bogs down in legalese, and my editor and I thought I’d be doing a public service to write it up as a narrative that amplifies what actually happened.
I received the contract in mid-June, turned in the manuscript over Labor Day weekend, and the trade paperback—with its Grisham-like cover and unsexy, publisher-chosen title—was in stores December 10, 2019. Although I wasn’t getting a cut of sales, I set up two Chicago-area bookstore appearances where dozens of books were sold to alarmed and engaged readers, and beyond that…I don’t know.
Given that The Special Counsel was the publisher’s idea, I assumed they’d have an energetic marketing/publicity strategy in place, and I’ll leave it at that.
Take It to the Bridge: Unlocking the Great Stories Inside You was a labor of love, a book encouraging people to tap into their creativity and to write songs. I co-authored it with my friend Steve Dawson, a wonderful singer/songwriter in Chicago who teaches a fun, innovative songwriting class at the Old Town School of Folk Music, and our dialogue about music and songwriting is like a printed Caropop episode.
I wanted more of a hands-on experience after The Foie Gras Wars, so I hired and oversaw the designer and was involved in every step of the editing, production and publicity. We went with a local music publisher, GIA Music, owned by a close friend of mine, and getting the book out into the world was a learning experience for them and us. It’s a cool book even if you haven’t heard of it.
Behind the Laugher: A Comedian’s Tale of Tragedy and Hope was another project presented to me—this time by William Morris Endeavor, which wanted a memoir about comedian Anthony Griffith’s dramatic tale (which they discovered via a Moth monologue) so it could be adapted into a movie.
I worked with Anthony, whose very young daughter was dying of leukemia just as he was starting to break through as a comedian decades earlier; we got the proposal together, and Thomas Nelson, a Christian wing of Harper Collins, responded to the story’s faith aspects, bought the book and added Anthony’s wife, Brigitte Travis-Griffin, as an author.
I would have taken the book in some different directions (and kept my original title), but I enjoyed the work and thought it would lead to more such projects. Several years and some false starts later, I’m determined to do my own stuff from now on.
CS: What are you working on now?
MC: Self-care?
Also, I recently finished writing a “culinary thriller” (as one reader dubbed it) called Knifework, which may be the product of my having read a lot of Donald Westlake/Richard Stark, Elmore Leonard and Carl Hiaasen during the pandemic, while also doing some side work for James Patterson. Now I must figure out how to get Knifework out into the world because it’s a fun read (really!) despite its COVID-era setting.
I’ve also begun work on a screenplay and a short story, and I’m the editor of Northwestern University’s Medill Local News Initiative, for which I write and edit stories about the ailing local news industry. Then there’s Caropop, a beast that needs feeding every week, but I’m really enjoying talking with creative people I admire and sharing these conversations. Like most podcasters these days, I still must work on that dreaded word: monetization.
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Mark Caro created and hosts the weekly Caropop podcast, which features in-depth, relaxed conversations with musicians, actors, filmmakers and other creative people. His books include The Foie Gras Wars (Simon & Schuster), which won the Great Lakes Book Award for general nonfiction, and The Special Counsel: The Mueller Report Retold (Mulholland). He co-authored Take It to the Bridge: Unlocking the Great Songs Inside You (GIA) and Behind the Laughter: A Comedian’s Tale of Tragedy and Hope (Thomas Nelson).
After more than 25 years as a reporter and critic for the Chicago Tribune, he contributes to the New York Times, Chicago magazine and other outlets. He previously hosted the “Is It Still Funny?” film series at Chicago’s Music Box Theatre. He lives in the Chicago area with his wife, WBEZ/“Morning Edition” anchor Mary Dixon.